Leathers

[Reddirtwind]

Did a search, but can’t really come up with any “definitive” info.

I’m about to replace the leathers on a mill at a place I just purchased (It’s pumping, but not strong, and hasn’t had any real maintenance done on it the previous several years). Nothing special, just an older American West 6’, pumping at a depth of about 50 feet. It has 2” drop pipe, so pretty sure it’s 1-7/8” cylinder. Not pumping real strong, until the wind gets 15-20mph plus.

I have about 4 choices on leathers:

1) Soft
2) Hard
3) Hard graphite impregnated
4) Neoprene

Obviously, the question is, which ones??

It’s a shallow well, so not hard to pull them again in a year, but, why pick one over the other??

It’s pumping little to no silt, so that’s not much of an issue. The cylinder is likely 30 plus years old (perhaps not super smooth)—-Would this be a reason to avoid neoprene??

Does the “soft leather”, while not as tough as the hard, seal a little better in an older cylinder???

Is the only real reason to go with hard leather going to be “durability”?? Will it “seal” worse, and then pump less water??

Are the graphite mainly for lubrication, to pump a little easier if you’re near the max pumping depth for the mill (heavy column of water PLUS friction of leathers), or does the lubrication add to the longevity of the leathers?? Why would one prefer hard leathers with NO graphite, when a graphite option is available, that’s just as hard/durable, and has the benefit of the added graphite??

Maybe I’m overthinking it, but just wonder why there’d be so many leather choices, if the only REAL issues are excess silt prematurely tearing up certain ones (soft leather/neoprene), or maximizing the water pumped??

Please enlighten me/us, or otherwise, I guess I’ll figure it out over the next 5 plus years, using my mill as an “experiment”!!! Thanks!

[windybob]

I guess the first thing is to pull it all out of the well, and see what you have to work with. UNless you can see through the ground, you don't have any idea what shape things are in.

On the leathers, I have tried many different types, but have always had the best luck with regular stockman leather ones. They are stiff, but when they get wet, they are flexible.

We have always told customers that we can give a price on windmill or tower work, but we need to pull the well to see what's there before pricing.

[Reddirtwind]

Thanks. Like I said, it’s pumping “ok”, and I can even see the “weep hole” (to prevent freezing) squirting water, 3-4 feet down, even when the wind has stopped for a minute (so it’s pumping enough water to keep it near the outlet, even in a light breeze). Figured I’d pull pump rod/pump valve/bottom check first, re-leather, and if STILL not “up to snuff”, think about pulling the drop pipe/cylinder, to see if there’s excessive wear or leaky pipe. (I’m doing this as a personal “hobby project”, so not hiring it out or expecting perfection on the first go-round. Just kinda learning.)

Silly question, but does anyone ever MIX leathers, (soft and neoprene, or soft and hard) on the pump valve to try and get the benefits of different materials?? Or is that just crazy??

[Ron Stauffer]

Likely with 2" drop pipe it is an open top cylinder. But 3" and 4" closed top cylinders are available in 2" drop pipe.

Reduced pumping can also be caused by holes in the drop pipe or leaky fittings or worn dirty dhecks. If the water level in the drop pipe holds for an hour at the weep hole level you are good for leaks or holes and the checks.

You can gain some info without pulling everything. Put the mill on stroke bottom before disconnecting and mark a reference on sucker rod. After you disconnect, see how far it goes down before contacting the bottom check - usually about an inch. Open tops work fairly hard so if you can pick up the rod by hand and work it, it is probably worn leathers. You can feel an open top when the traveling/working check comes out of the tube when pulling. The distance that it has to be raised when coming out of the tube is about 16" on a 24" barrel, 22" on a 30" and 28" on a 36". With a six foot mill and 6" stroke, you can get two sets on almost any size open top. These distances are when just pulling the traveling/working check and not pulling the bottom check also. You will know if it is a closed top cylinder after 12 or 14". If it is an open top with glass rod and you have a willing accomplice, you can arc the rod out thru the tower without uncoupling, Just be careful when you are going back in to keep the rod straight without side pressure to damage the leathers. I have pulled up to147' this way.

Open tops come with hard leathers and they will last the longest and best in an open top since it has 3 or 4 leathers and not just two.

Ron Stauffer
Montrose CO

[Reddirtwind]

Thank you!

Sounds like hard leather is the way to go. Any opinions on the hard leather WITH graphite?

Based on the other setups I’ve seen in the area, and folks I’ve talked with, I’m guessing there’s about a 95% chance it’s a garden-variety 1-7/8” open-top cylinder (it’s 2” drop pipe).

I’ve got a Solinst well level meter (thank you, eBay), and it’s only a 63’ deep well, so not expecting there to be much more than about 50’ of drop pipe. Static is 30’. Good to know I can “arc” the rod out, especially if I’m having trouble getting them apart, and don’t want to waste time taking them apart.

I’ve got a Kwik Klamp and a chain hoist, if it came to a point where I thought it was necessary to pull the drop pipe, and figure I could handle that much (50’) pipe pretty easily with the help of a friend.

As mentioned, I can watch the stream of water squirt out the weep hole (3-4’ down) even when it has stopped pumping for quite some time, which leads me to believe that the checks are holding pretty good (I’ll pull the bottom check, and re-leather it, when I pull the rod/traveling check.

Obviously, the bottom check sometimes requires a little “persuasion” to get out (hoisting up on the rod a little, maybe a little hammering down on the drop pipe). Do you get many instances where the bottom check is SO stuck, that you feel obligated to pull the drop pipe, rather than risk breaking sucker rod, or wasting more time (I have fiberglass rod, btw)?? (If this seems to be an issue, I may just monitor how quickly my water level in the drop pipe is falling with my Solinst, once it gets below the weep hole, rather than wasting a bunch of time/effort to get a bottom check out that is likely functioning/sealed well..)

I’ll make sure to look at both check valves, closely, to make sure they don’t seem to be an issue. In a perfect world, would you rather see a “spool-check”, or a “ball”, or do you notice much difference in reliability??

Realize the “appropriate” answer, when doing this kind of work, for a PRO, is always “Pull the pipe/cylinder!”, if there’s any doubt. But since I’m a “hobbyist”, working on my own well, I’m just looking at ways to avoid doing unnecessary work (or breaking more stuff, by doing unnecessary work…)!

[Ron Stauffer]

If you are holding water at the weep hole, we don't pull the bottom check. The leather is sealed and the ball is the only thing functioning. The bottom ball and cage wears at the same rate as the upper so if upper looks bad, you can go back in with leather less plunger to retrieve the bottom. If upper ball and cage is good, you have eliminated a variable by not pulling the bottom.

Mostly all we see is ball valves.

Ron

[Reddirtwind]

Got the leathers changed out! Did them all (upper and bottom check). Used the graphite hard leather. Got a little worried when the upper check didn’t seem to have much resistance when I put it back in. Wasn’t pumping any water, even with a decent wind (and I had topped off the drop pipe with water, so it wouldn’t take so long to fill). Figured I’d give it a little time, in case the leathers needed to swell or if something needed to clear itself from the check (old pipe, noticed some deposits/minerals when I pulled the checks, so wouldn’t have been surprised if I dislodged more, putting the checks/sucker rod back in).

Came back 1-2 hours later, and pumping like a champ. Guessing the leathers swelled up like they were supposed to, and sealed fine.

[Wayne]

Superior skill and knowledge have triumphed over ignorance and superstition once again!

[Ron Stauffer]

The 1 7/8 open top 449 is the most common but least desirable.of the open tops as there is only 1/8 of room betwèen leathers and pipe ID. You clean all the rust and scale when pulling and need to be careful when going back in with new leathers to not damage. The 2.25 and 2.75 open tops with 1/4 clearance are more user friendly

Ron Stauffer
Montrose CO

[Reddirtwind]

The 1 7/8 open top 449 is the most common but least desirable.of the open tops as there is only 1/8 of room betwèen leathers and pipe ID. You clean all the rust and scale when pulling and need to be careful when going back in with new leathers to not damage. The 2.25 and 2.75 open tops with 1/4 clearance are more user friendly

Ron Stauffer
Montrose CO

That brings up another question. There are multiple lengths of the 449 (24”, 30”, 36”) (and I’m sure varying lengths of other diameter cylinders, as well) . Since most windmill strokes are only 5-7”, what is the “need” for the longer cylinders?? Do you occasionally move the pump valve up higher, over the years (further than the customary 2-3” from the bottom check), so that it avoids wearing in one spot?? Otherwise, why would you need one longer than the 24”??