Samson S: new to me crusty, where to begin
Re: Samson S: new to me crusty, where to begin
That's a LOT easier than pinning a Aermotor 602. Those are in the teeth, so any protrusion locks it up. Lots of leeway on those. Don't lose sleep over it. Piece of cake, and lots of margin on that one.
Call Dan Benjamin for parts. P M me for the phone number.
Re: Samson S: new to me crusty, where to begin
I'm back. Weather getting worse, so progress will be interrupted more and more.
Lets talk about the Samson S OIL PUMP:
Here are photos of mine. With one damage exception, all oil pump parts look good to me. The inside pump rod seems fine. Gunky inside and I think it had a stuck ball in there. And, of course, in final cleaning it disappeared. Everyone warns of that and it got away even with me watching. However, the parts sheet for these mills show a 7/32" ball for 8, 10 and 12-foot mills. I figured steel ball bearing for it's weight, but in a wonderful and helpful conversation with Dan Benjamin, he quickly corrected me - they were brass balls. No springs in these. So I have solid brass ball bearings incoming from Amazon. Only need one. Not much more to do with that part and I think trying to "polish" the inside would be fruitless.
Next, ---- the outer tube. All just fine except just above the bottom brass plug, (which I also believe to be a ball seat on the inside), water must have sat in there for quite a while as a hole rusted though and it has cratering. It appears the hole is below the pump rod travel. The pump might still work, but I think Stover never intended for that extra hole to be there, so I think I'll fix it. Options are:
1 Figure out how that brass plug/seat is in there and remove it. (Anyone know how it's held in there????) Then get someone to weld up the hole, machine ream the inside to size and spin it on a lathe to finish the outside. Means I have to hire a better welder and a machinist.
2. I get a little piece of thin shim brass, (less than 1/2" square or round), heat it to make it, "form," and place it snug over the hole. Then mix and place tiny amounts of JB Weld around part of the edge of the shim stock and let it set up. Once patch is partially set, fill around it with more JB Weld to seal the hole. The idea of the patch would not be for strength, but merely to prevent the putty from going on into the tube. File smooth the exterior and it likely would not have to be perfect - just smooth where it slides.
Photos attached. Please comment as you wish. Perhaps all this will help someone else in the future to know what this pump looks like; because I did not.
Lets talk about the Samson S OIL PUMP:
Here are photos of mine. With one damage exception, all oil pump parts look good to me. The inside pump rod seems fine. Gunky inside and I think it had a stuck ball in there. And, of course, in final cleaning it disappeared. Everyone warns of that and it got away even with me watching. However, the parts sheet for these mills show a 7/32" ball for 8, 10 and 12-foot mills. I figured steel ball bearing for it's weight, but in a wonderful and helpful conversation with Dan Benjamin, he quickly corrected me - they were brass balls. No springs in these. So I have solid brass ball bearings incoming from Amazon. Only need one. Not much more to do with that part and I think trying to "polish" the inside would be fruitless.
Next, ---- the outer tube. All just fine except just above the bottom brass plug, (which I also believe to be a ball seat on the inside), water must have sat in there for quite a while as a hole rusted though and it has cratering. It appears the hole is below the pump rod travel. The pump might still work, but I think Stover never intended for that extra hole to be there, so I think I'll fix it. Options are:
1 Figure out how that brass plug/seat is in there and remove it. (Anyone know how it's held in there????) Then get someone to weld up the hole, machine ream the inside to size and spin it on a lathe to finish the outside. Means I have to hire a better welder and a machinist.
2. I get a little piece of thin shim brass, (less than 1/2" square or round), heat it to make it, "form," and place it snug over the hole. Then mix and place tiny amounts of JB Weld around part of the edge of the shim stock and let it set up. Once patch is partially set, fill around it with more JB Weld to seal the hole. The idea of the patch would not be for strength, but merely to prevent the putty from going on into the tube. File smooth the exterior and it likely would not have to be perfect - just smooth where it slides.
Photos attached. Please comment as you wish. Perhaps all this will help someone else in the future to know what this pump looks like; because I did not.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Re: Samson S: new to me crusty, where to begin
Maybe you could heat it up, and the plug will loosen up to come out. Then you could put a rod up into the tube,and braze the hole closed.Then sand it down. That might be better than JB, although that's not a bad idea. I think JB should only be used in a non-stressful area like this.
Call Dan Benjamin for parts. P M me for the phone number.
Re: Samson S: new to me crusty, where to begin
i liked your idea, but heat did nothing to loosen that plug.
Off current topic question, (but will have to be addressed in the future): If I can ever get the castellated nut off the fan end of the main shaft, next will be to pull that big dome shaped hub. When the mill is in normal vertical position, standing in front of the mill.....inside that hub on the right side, there are two square head pipe plugs. One forward but in line with the first. Not horrible to get to the rear one, impossible to get hand in for front one. Anyone know what these are for? I'm thinking there is a possibility they may have nothing to do with removing that big hub. ????????
Off current topic question, (but will have to be addressed in the future): If I can ever get the castellated nut off the fan end of the main shaft, next will be to pull that big dome shaped hub. When the mill is in normal vertical position, standing in front of the mill.....inside that hub on the right side, there are two square head pipe plugs. One forward but in line with the first. Not horrible to get to the rear one, impossible to get hand in for front one. Anyone know what these are for? I'm thinking there is a possibility they may have nothing to do with removing that big hub. ????????
Re: Samson S: new to me crusty, where to begin
That I don't know. You can sideways cut the nut. Trim one side off, and problem solved.
As far as the guide rod is concerned, is the corroded spot where the setscrew was? Oil needs to be able to flow into the rod easily. I would also check, and see if the guiderod, once in the case has room under the bottom to allow for oil flow-in. I think that's why they put an extra plug in the outside, to keep that low area clean when servicing.
As far as the guide rod is concerned, is the corroded spot where the setscrew was? Oil needs to be able to flow into the rod easily. I would also check, and see if the guiderod, once in the case has room under the bottom to allow for oil flow-in. I think that's why they put an extra plug in the outside, to keep that low area clean when servicing.
Call Dan Benjamin for parts. P M me for the phone number.
Re: Samson S: new to me crusty, where to begin
Aahhhhhh - scramble........
Set screw to lock in the guide rod in is much higher. In my photos of last night, first photo, you can see a hold clear through the guide rod. No evidence of a roll-pin for any purpose, no threads, etc., just a hole clear through. That with the hole in the bottom end of the brass plug would give 3 points for oil to flow into the bottom of the pump. The rusted through and rust cratered area actually just furnishes a 4th entry for oil to enter. It might be I may need to do nothing, but I figure Stover engineers might not have agreed with me. When I get to it I think I'll put the entire pump assembly hanging with the bottom 4 or 5 inches or so in oil - then, by hand, raise and lower the top piston collar just like the saddle/carrier would in real life. My thinking is that it ought to pulp oil out the top. If so, will it be pumping too much with that rusted through 4th home?
What fun.
(PS: I don't know what you mean my, "...extra plug on the outside.." - extra drain plug on outside of main case?)
Set screw to lock in the guide rod in is much higher. In my photos of last night, first photo, you can see a hold clear through the guide rod. No evidence of a roll-pin for any purpose, no threads, etc., just a hole clear through. That with the hole in the bottom end of the brass plug would give 3 points for oil to flow into the bottom of the pump. The rusted through and rust cratered area actually just furnishes a 4th entry for oil to enter. It might be I may need to do nothing, but I figure Stover engineers might not have agreed with me. When I get to it I think I'll put the entire pump assembly hanging with the bottom 4 or 5 inches or so in oil - then, by hand, raise and lower the top piston collar just like the saddle/carrier would in real life. My thinking is that it ought to pulp oil out the top. If so, will it be pumping too much with that rusted through 4th home?
What fun.
(PS: I don't know what you mean my, "...extra plug on the outside.." - extra drain plug on outside of main case?)
Re: Samson S: new to me crusty, where to begin
Yes under the case There may be a small plug to drain the oil out of the sump. The M has one. Figured the S did too. might be wrong. Careful when you pump it by hand. You'll have oil in your face. I don't remember where the BB was. If there is one in the guide rod itself, ( I might be wrong) it won't fall out of the rusty hole. But an extra inlet won't hurt I don't think.
Call Dan Benjamin for parts. P M me for the phone number.
Re: Samson S: new to me crusty, where to begin
Got the castellated nut off the shaft end, (fan end). See pic. Dremel type tool w 1 1/2 inch cutting disk worked fine. Now the front, smaller, spoke plate is also off. Bad news is I see that plate has "inside" threads, which sure suggest it was threaded on the shaft end. But there appears to have been so much loose wear around that area that there is no longer enough thread depth to hold anything. That plate just pulled right off; sloppy. Dang. Not sure if there is any such thing as building up that shaft end and cutting new threads. ????????? Lots of rust where hub meets shaft front. How is that big hub attached to the main shaft???? I'm guessing with a long key. If so, it's a slide on or press fit and I'm wondering how the dickens I'm ever going to get that off. Ideas? I know rosebud torch heat helps a lot of things, but that's a big chunk of metal to try to heat up. ????????
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Re: Samson S: new to me crusty, where to begin
This is all speculation at this point for me. You cannot have the large hub screw on by itself, then the smaller one by itself. The tab and notch say NO to that. If you screw the big one on, the small one won't go up to the big one, because the tab will hit before it gets to the seat on the large hub. So, either they both screw on together when mated, or one screws on, and the other does not. I don't see any options from that. Obviously, there are threads on the outer hub, don't know about the big one. I don't see a key or keyway on the large one at this point. It's possible the large hub slides on, up against a taper, or hits a solid stop on the shaft. Then the small hub screws on to tighten both, because the the tab will be engaged. The castle nut locks up against the threaded outer hub, to lock it.
At this point, that's my best guess. All subect to a change or modification. If there is no key in the large hub, either it slides on or screws on. Threads appear to be right handed, not left handed. double check that. I would maybe heat / soak large hub, and attempt to unscrew. Also double check any parts list you might have to notice any length of threading on the mainshaft. Maybe get a clue from that. Or even if there's a taper on the shaft. Or even a keyway.
At this point, that's my best guess. All subect to a change or modification. If there is no key in the large hub, either it slides on or screws on. Threads appear to be right handed, not left handed. double check that. I would maybe heat / soak large hub, and attempt to unscrew. Also double check any parts list you might have to notice any length of threading on the mainshaft. Maybe get a clue from that. Or even if there's a taper on the shaft. Or even a keyway.
Call Dan Benjamin for parts. P M me for the phone number.
Re: Samson S: new to me crusty, where to begin
Found two photos off of FaceBook that show the author disassembling a smaller S and what is under the large hub.
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