New windmill well cylinder selection

[FlJet]

While I am finishing rebuilding my windmill head, I figured I might as well start tracking down parts to actually make it pump. When I purchased it, it did not come with any sucker rod or a pump so I am starting from scratch. Here is what I'm working with.

Fairbanks Morse, 8' mill with a long and a short stroke. I thought I had the stroke lengths in my literature on my computer but I'm not seeing that. I'll need to actually put a tape on that. 32' tower, 4' diameter well casing. Well depth is ~100', water table is roughly 85' below grade.

So my question for the class is since I am starting from scratch, what do I get? Cost is a consideration, but it is not my top consideration. I want something that is going to last, be easy to maintain, easy to get parts for, and pumps as much water as is possible. If I have to pay a few more dollars today, to save me some headaches tomorrow, I'm going to do it.

I'm not opposed to new, used, rebuilt, or I rebuild it. I've found a couple of places online, but I really don't know what I'm looking for, and I'd rather learn from your experience than stumble my way into my own experience.

What have you had good luck with? And just as important, what should I avoid?

[windybob]

For around this area, for an 8 ft mill, long stroke...

1 1/4 inch drop pipe. Galvanized. 7/16 galv sucker (jet) rod. 2 1/2 inch all brass 2 leather cylinder, set at approx 12-15 ft under water level. Or 2 inch cylinder. Optional setting on short stroke, for easier operation, less water p/stroke.

Or....2 in Sche 80 pvc (threaded) w/ sch 180 or galv collars. 7/8 ( w/5/8 ended) F/G sucker rod. 1 7/8 open top cylinder w/ removable bottom check. Pull sucker rod to service well leathers. Need sucker rod guides with this. Long stroke in head. Place 15 ft or so under water level.

This is our area. Check with local plumbers / well service folks in yours.

You may consider a 2 wire 110 V submers to hang on the end of a well cylinder. If the wind stops, and you need, pull up to site with a gen, and plug it in for backup.

[Bryon]

2 inch galvanized drop pipe. Fiberglass sucker rod - 1/2 inch with rod guides. 1-7/8 inch open top cylinder set 3 foot off the bottom of the well. You will never have to lower the drop pipe if the water level drops and to change the leathers, you just pull the sucker rod out with the traveling valve on the end of it, change the leathers and put it back in. With such a shallow well, your 8ft mill should do fine on the long stroke. The 2 inch galv steel pipe gives you weight to keep the pipe in the well and not be lifted up by the windmill. Good luck on whatever you decide.

[FlJet]

I'm liking the idea of the open top cylinder. I also like the idea of the fiberglass sucker rods. At least for the ones not exposed to sunlight. I'll go galvanized from the mill to the top of the casing. I'll need to drop a weighted string down the casing to see what my actual water height is and total depth of the bore-hole. I know when the driller blew it off, he was estimating the well at producing 15 gallons a minute, so I really can't over-pump the thing. Not with a windmill anyhow. Can I realistically go any bigger than 1-7/8" cylinder? I'm sure that depends on my wind doesn't it?

I like the idea of schedule 80 PVC because I've not seen a galvanized drop pipe come back up that wasn't heavily corroded. I like the idea of galvanized because I've yet to see a stick of PVC that didn't have a natural curve to it. I'm a little concerned about the sucker rod wearing a hole in the drop pipe. Do the sucker rod guides prevent this, or just slow it down?

Windybob, I like the idea of the electric backup. I already have a well on the property feeding the house, so having wind-powered water is a backup to that. Plus the pond, and the pool for various uses if the power went out. But having a backup to the backup sounds nice too. Plus I have a used 240V 3-wire pump and control panel sitting in the shed so why not. I do need to test it, but assuming it works, I was going to install it below the cylinder. I've seen a couple of outfits offering that upgrade, which is just a couple of fittings and a check valve. Eventually I'd love to build a little water tower to pump into. I'm thinking a round poly tank wrapped in old rustic corrugated tin, or maybe wrap it in cypress boards. I've got an old tin roof off of a grain bin that would sit perfect on top to keep everything covered and out of view. Pump into the tank, let the overflow dump into the pond, and have a little bit of gravity-flow to the house if I wanted it. Not enough to take a decent shower in, but enough to wash your hands, and maybe even flush the toilets. The kids aren't aware enough to be real conservative when the power goes out. That pressure tank on the well only lasts so long.

[windybob]

A couple comments. PVC even tho it may have a curve, should straighten with it hanging, and a cylinder on the end, possible submerse on that, and water in it. Will be pretty heavy. Don't know about the 230 v pump. But submersables have a check, a windmill cylinder has a check, so another check is not needed. I have just screwed the sub on the end of the cylinder, with NO problems, many times. The mill pulls water thru the inlet of the sub, and up thru the cylinder.
Guides clamp onto the jetrod, keeping it away from the pipe wall. I have always thought they were TOO expensive. You only use an open top cylinder if the drop pipe is larger than the plunger with leathers on the end of the jetrod. Otherwise, of course, you could not pull it up thru the pipe. Plus, the mill is sized to the water depth. It's that ol' 9 pounds a gallon thing. If you could put a 3 inch drop pipe down, then you could technically install a 2 7/8 open top cylinder on the end of it. Good luck pulling that weight up with an 8 ft mill. But you get the point.

[Bryon]

If you decide to put an electric pump on the bottom with the working barrel, there should only be ONE check in the entire system.

[FlJet]

So utilize the built in check on the electric pump, and do not install the bottom check in the cylinder? That makes sense when I think it through. With an open-top cylinder, if the check ever failed in the electrical pump, I could always install one in the working barrel and avoid having to pull everything out of the casing. At least postpone that operation anyhow. I'll test the electric pump I have. If it works, it's getting installed.

I think my confusion on adding an electric pump has come from the photos that have always accompanied the kits for installing an electric pump under a working cylinder. Without a check in this kit, I can't see that either pump would work.

On the working barrel and sucker rods (I can source the drop pipe easy)- any recommendations on who to buy from?

[Bryon]

Also, you should never put more than 10 gallons per minute through a working barrel. If you do, you will blow out (wear out) the leathers in the cylinder.

[Ron Stauffer]

Observations on your setup:

You wont be able to use one of those kits in your 4" well. The kits are somewhat tight in a 6" well if you are going down very far. If you draw water through a pump for the cylinder, it needs to be <10 gpm at 200' head. These pumps have less stages so water gets thru them easier. Only multiple gravity checks are an issue, spring loaded are not.

You will want to do a surround around your PVC casing of concrete so that you can use a base flange for holding the drop pipe. A well seal doesnt hold good in pvc and if you attach a base flange to your pvc, it will destroy the casing if it starts picking up the whole string when/if it jams.

Your tower with all the extra X braces and girts welded is a service hassle. The only plus is that is 32' which you can stack whatever you are pulling in the tower or you lay the tower/mill away to service down the well.

Pipe quality is important. US made Wheatland Tube is all we use. Korean made is the only import worth considering, stay away from anything Vietnam, Malaysia, Phillipines etc. I have worked on others' installs where the pipe didnt last as long as the leathers.

Wanting the most water with least expensive costs will likely put you in to 1.25' pipe, 7/16 rod and a 2.75" 442 closed top cylinder. The 2.75 cylinder will make 6.5 gpm in good wind over the 3 gpm of an 1 7/8. We have looked at the numbers and we switch from closed 442 to open 449 cylinders at 200'. Pulling 1.25" with rod inside isnt hard if set up correctly. Set up correctly is rod couplings 3-6" above pipe couplings. No special tools needed. We have the $600 elevators for safe quick handling of 5/8 & 7/8 fiberglass rod

21' sucker rod is truck freight. Damage to rod is too common in truck freight. 7/16 they will bend and glass they will damage the threads. All glass rod I have gotten lately has guides already installed. Glass rod has to have guides to work correctly and not wear on the pipe. An alternative to off the shelf rod would be making from pipe. 3/8 pipe would be used in place of 7/16 rod, 1/2 would be used in place of glass rod. You make adapters at the cylinder to get to 7/16 SAE if closed 442 or 5/8 or 7/8 SAE if open 1 7/8 or 2.25 respectively. If you use pipe for rod, only US pipe has good enough threads to take it.

Keep life simple. Run full sticks of pipe and rod to your cylinder. Keep it all galvanized pipe (threaded PVC is 20' and not 21' like pipe & rod). 4 sticks will get you to water (4 x 21 plus cylinder). Below the cylinder to 2' from well bottom you can use a bare open suction pipe. If you are going to set a sub, do a custom length pipe for to have it 2' off bottom. Even if you have drawdown, at your low elevation a cylinder can suck 20'. Measure accurately to water and total depth to do make ups ahead and install quick.

Midland cylinders are the most common and parts readily available.


Ron Stauffer
Montrose CO

[PaulV]

Here's my setup. Midland 1-7/8" x 30" cylinder, Berkeley 4" electric pump, 2" drop pipe, fiberglass rod with guides. Pipe is made in Vietnam, so we'll see how long it lasts. Installed 5 years ago. No issues yet with the setup.

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